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The consequences of Brexit, finance and a unified Ireland dominate the leaders’ television debate
The fallout from Brexit, discord over calls for a united Ireland and Stormont’s perilous financial position dominated the first major television debate of the general election campaign in Northern Ireland.
Senior representatives from Sinn Fein, the DUP, the Alliance Party, the Ulster Unionist Party and the SDLP took part in the UTV debate on Sunday.
The line-up included three party leaders – Gavin Robinson of the DUP, Naomi Long of the Alliance and Colum Eastwood of the SDLP – while Sinn Fein was represented by its north Belfast candidate John Finucane and the UUP by its deputy leader and candidate from Lagan Valley, Robbie Butler.
The debate, which was largely balanced in nature, was held at UTV’s studios in the City Quays 2 building in Belfast and moderated by the broadcaster’s political correspondent, Vicki Hawthorne.
The debate took place at UTV’s City Quays 2 studios (Alamy/PA)
The hour-long program began with Robinson being challenged over the DUP’s endorsement of the UK government’s post-Brexit trade blueprint that the party used to justify abandoning its two-year blockade of power-sharing at Stormont in beginning of this year.
The DUP leader said he did not accept the suggestion that his party had overreached in the deal, as he claimed the package of measures had achieved some progress in addressing union concerns over trade and sovereignty, but that there was still work to be done.
“It is very clear that the roadmap exists, we have achieved progress when others didn’t care or didn’t try, and we maintain our record of achievement for the people who elected us,” he said.
Finucane was pressed on Sinn Fein’s long-standing abstentionist policy at Westminster, in the context of decisions taken over the form of Brexit withdrawal in recent years.
He insisted that his party’s voice was clearly heard in London through direct meetings with government ministers and senior opposition MPs.
Finucane said Sinn Fein representatives had also taken their message to the heart of the political establishment in Brussels and Washington.
“If we go back and really look at the outcome of what the British government intended to do, there was not a single vote (in Parliament) that could stop the Brexit project,” he said.
“And I think when we have a House that, by its very nature, is designed to make MPs here irrelevant, the real work is done when we engage directly with them. And that’s what we’ve been doing.”
Mr Eastwood was asked what difference the SDLP actually made by taking a seat at Westminster. He said he firmly believes that unless elected MPs show up in Parliament, “you just don’t count”.
He said his party has been a voice for “common sense” in the House of Commons.
“If you ask MPs from across the political spectrum in Westminster, they wouldn’t really know who Sinn Fein MPs are,” he added.
Ms Long said there was a need for voices other than the DUP to be represented at Westminster.
“The DUP delivered results last term – it caused Brexit chaos, it caused the collapse of the Assembly, it presented a very negative outlook on Northern Ireland,” she said.
“What I want to do and what my colleagues want to do is project that more positive element of Northern Ireland, talk about what we can achieve and what we can do and the support we need to be able to enable that. I think that more positive voice needs to be heard.”
These remarks sparked one of the debate’s most robust arguments, with Robinson accusing Ms Long and the other parties of ignoring union concerns about post-Brexit trade deals.
“They didn’t care about our concerns, and that’s damaging, that’s not how progress is going to be made in Northern Ireland,” he said.
Long said the blame for the problems Northern Ireland faced post-Brexit lies with the DUP, not only for campaigning for the UK to leave the EU but also for “advocating a harder Brexit”.
“I think it’s unfair to create a problem and then expect everyone to take responsibility for the consequences of it while you live in denial,” she told Robinson.
Butler said his party had been consistent throughout the Brexit process, warning of the potential damage a UK exit from the EU could inflict on Northern Ireland.
The UTV election debate with moderator Vicki Hawthorne lasted an hour (Kelvin Boyes/Press Eye/PA)
He also accused Sinn Fein and the DUP of making the people of the region “suffer the consequences of political failure” with their moves to overturn power-sharing for two long periods in the past seven years.
He said his party would pursue more “positive” policies at Westminster.
“It would be making Northern Ireland work and not the belligerent politics that I grew up with, that I want to see changed,” he said.
The second part of the debate focused on Stormont’s dismal financial picture.
Finucane insisted it was a “lazy narrative” to suggest the solution was for Stormont to impose more income-raising measures on people in the region.
He said local parties needed instead to take a united approach to lobbying the Treasury for more money.
“What we need is a collective voice that opposes the Treasury, that opposes Westminster and that demands the minimum resources we need to improve, especially public resources like health and education,” he said.
Butler was asked whether his party had acted responsibly in recently voting against Stormont’s budget, which was agreed by the other parties in the Executive. Former UUP health minister Robin Swann opposed the budget plan after claiming that the allocation to his department would inflict significant damage on the provision of health services.
“We have responsibility for the health portfolio and it is very clear that missing hundreds of millions of pounds will cause harm to the people of Northern Ireland,” Butler said.
“We do not feel there was a fair allocation and we are working with our executive partners to see this remedied and we want to see this remedied as quickly as possible.”
Long accused political rivals of avoiding “difficult decisions” when it came to reforming and restructuring public services in Northern Ireland.
She also said there were other ways to raise revenue, such as taxing corporations and the super-rich, rather than introducing new taxes on “struggling families”.
Ms Long said Northern Ireland was underfunded by London, but said there was also a need to address the cost of division in the region, with many services duplicating as a consequence of the need to provide services to divided communities.
“There is no escaping the reality that when we receive this money, we have to be responsible for how we spend it,” she said.
“We can’t overspend, we can’t waste. And we need to look, before we start dipping into the pockets of struggling members of the public, we need to look at the money that is wasted on the cost of division in our society.”
Eastwood said Northern Ireland was an economic “basket case” and that the financial situation had once again demonstrated the need for local MPs to attend Westminster to pressure the next government for more funding.
“While we would love to see more tax powers in Northern Ireland, the powers at the moment are in London, so we have to go there, as much as I don’t want to, we have to go there, wait. them to be accountable and speak for the people here,” he said.
Robinson made it clear that his party was opposed to revenue-raising measures. He said people have a higher tax burden now than at any time since World War II.
“I’m not sure there’s a big appetite to hear about more fiscal decentralization, which means more revenue growth, which means more hardship for struggling working families,” he said.
The final part of the debate centered on the long-running dispute over the constitutional future of Northern Ireland.
Robinson said he had no interest in participating in a social conversation about the division of the United Kingdom.
“As a trade unionist, I can say that this is a boring repetition of an aspiration that has not gained any traction in the last 25 years,” he said.
“The combined nationalist and republican vote in Northern Ireland has not grown one bit in 25 years. So, it’s not gaining traction. As a trade unionist, the idea of having a casual, polite or engaging conversation about this issue of cutting off my own country is as appealing as having a polite conversation about cutting off my own leg.”
Mr Finucane was asked about recent comments by former taoiseach Leo Varadkar when he suggested that the process of changing hearts and minds regarding constitutional change would require the republican movement to make a specific apology for its actions during the Troubles.
The senior Sinn Fein representative, whose father Pat was murdered by loyalists during the Troubles, said his party was not found wanting when it came to moves towards reconciliation.
But he said issues around pardon should be separate from the debate over a new Ireland.
“That’s a separate conversation, it’s a personal conversation, and it’s something that is very emotional and I would say should be divorced at the right time in this conversation, which is about looking to the future,” he said.
Ms. Long was pressed several times about why her party has not taken a position on the constitutional issue.
She urged her political rivals to respect the fact that she is neutral on the issue.
But she said the Alliance still wants to participate in the broader debate.
“We want to be part of that conversation because it will be our future as much as anyone else’s,” she said.
“The important thing for me, however, is that, first and foremost, as politicians, it will not be us who make these decisions, it will be the public who make these decisions at the ballot box in a referendum.”
Butler said nationalists and republicans had failed to agree on a common vision of what a united Ireland would look like.
“As a unionist, it is my responsibility to see Northern Ireland function, to see Northern Ireland prosper and I am not getting anything from the union community and even many in the nationalist community, who are not having that conversation (about unification) at the moment. “, he said.
“And this does not diminish the rights of the SDLP, Sinn Fein or anyone else to participate in these conversations. But I’m not realizing we’re at that point.
“And in fact, my priority will be to have an alternative conversation, which is to make Northern Ireland the most prosperous place in the United Kingdom and, indeed, in these islands.”
Eastwood said “reconciliation” must be at the heart of any debate about the unification of Ireland.
“I want this conversation to be a process of reconciliation where we explain to people that we can bring these communities back together, we can bring people together, we can give people better opportunities in life, better economic prospects, better public services.
“I think it is a prize worth receiving and becoming part of the European Union again,” he said.
“I think no matter who you are, no matter what your background, we have to understand that it’s not about righting historical wrongs, it’s about building a future together.”